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saved thread: key signatures
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people have been complaining about threads that get deleted. i decided to copy and paste this one into a blog to see how it would work out.
i did some editing to it, just really quick though. surely someone could write a script or something to turn a thread into a text file and then it'd be even easier.
if this doesn't get a bunch of likes, and/or it looks like crap i'm just going to delete it. add more comments if you feel like it.
what key sigs do you use freq
thread starter
06/29/08 yekker
i was thinking writing music with all white keys... c major is it?
i wonder how much i could write like this without sounding repetitive, it sure beats learning all these fancy key sigs, white keys, hmmm , might catch on
06/29/08 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT jdg
u dont have to use all the white keys.
u can be in F# and still only use white keys :P
06/29/08 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT yekker
oh snap
i still haven't gotten around to learning these things, it's on my to-do list
Recent blogs: numeralmusic studio, Alpha 1 - Ilzee ep (my ep)
06/29/08 + EDIT | PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT eyesnine
c major is very bland!
using all white keys isn't a bad idea in terms of playability. figure out a way to transpose (by semitones, not just octave up/down), either on your midi controller/synth, or in your software, not sure what you're doing, then you can play any major scale using only white keys and using C as your root (C - to the left of the two blacks. root - the note you end melodies on / the note that gives you 'resolution').
in my experience, transposing like this gives you a lot of flexibility without having to learn tonnes of different fingerings. plus, you can transpose by ear without having to know what all the different keys sound like. just play whatever riff/harmonies you're working on and try different transpositions until you find the one that best fits what you're looking for. i have no idea what key/keys(i shift sometimes) my songs are in, but i know they're in the "right" one. my most recent release takes advantage of this technique. its actually composed with the same group of chords in a few different keys for different feel.
also try using A as your root (between black keys 2 and 3 in the group of 3), while still playing all white keys, and you're playing a natural minor scale. if you can't use minor scales you're missing out on a lot of expressiveness.
you can use any white key as your root for a different scale (welcome to modal theory!).
however, getting familiar with pentatonics will give you a more contemporary/bluesy/jazzy sound. try using all the black keys! add one extra note on top of this scale for some flavour (you'll find the 'blue' note soon enough). not a great technique for composing harmonies, but you can get away with this for melodies/riffs/hooks/whatever. bass lines especially are based on pentatonics, as your ability to discriminate between small intervals is diminished in low frequencies.
better yet, just find groupings of notes that work well for you, and write them down. don't worry about all the theory. theory was developed so musicians could communicate what they're doing to each other. if you don't have to tell anyone else what you're doing, it really doesn't matter what you call certain groups of notes.
thats my thoughts on the subject.
06/29/08 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT astroid
while, technically, e# and b#, are enharmonics of "white keys" f and c, they really just exacerbate the dingo monkey carmickle train to pittsburg. you might as well shotput the dingo straight out of the monkey train.
06/29/08 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT astroid
while, technically, e# and b#, are enharmonics of "white keys" f and c, they really just exacerbate the dingo monkey carmickle train to pittsburg. you might as well shotput the dingo straight out of the monkey train.
06/29/08 + EDIT | PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT eyesnine
LOLZ!
i'm pretty sure its a flat dingo on the monkey train, the natural dingo's on the freight elevator to the shoe museum.
06/29/08 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT strangus
What's the pastense of shotput?
06/29/08 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT astroid
i think i had a stroke
06/29/08 + EDIT | PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT eyesnine
strangus said: "What's the pastense of shotput?"
shatput
06/30/08 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT bla
i use note numbers 0-127
try each one until i find the good one
06/30/08 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT xLefr
E Something. Major-ish w/ some blue notes. Tend to end up there most times.
06/30/08 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT xLefr
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06/30/08 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT hecanjog
theory was developed so musicians could communicate what they're doing to each other. if you don't have to tell anyone else what you're doing, it really doesn't matter what you call certain groups of notes.
I couldn't agree more. Once you have a handle on the way everyone else does it, it's not a bad system, and you'll be able to communicate what you're doing to other musicians who are familiar with the flavor of music theory you're rocking, but you should just work with what makes sense to you. No matter what you do, the more you develop your ear, the easier the other stuff will become, it's just an exercise in naming for the most part, so worry about what you're hearing more than what you're calling it.
Eyesnine also makes a good point that if you feel comfortable with interval and harmony relationships on the white keys of a keyboard, great, transpose as you see fit. In equal temperament - which is the tuning system western music has used for hundreds of years to allow instruments like the piano to play in any key - pretty much all key centers are created equal. Some douchebags, er, some folks may argue that there is all the difference in the world between the key of C Major and the key of B Major in equal temperament, but there are only going to be specific cases where that might matter, and you probably don't have to worry about it. If you're writing something for cello and you want it to resonate in a specific way then you'll probably want to pay close attention to its patterns of resonance and what key center / pitches overlap with that for example. In pretty much all other popular cases, harmony and melody is all about relationships, so just work on your ear, work out what sorts of movements sound good to you, and take it from there!
06/30/08 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT hecanjog
Also, I just played about two hours of improvised music with some friends not too long ago - that was actually one of the few restrictions we decided on for the improvisation - white keys only! There's so much you can do even within that 'strict' harmonic world - maybe check out modal harmony like eyesnine suggested - you can keep yourself busy for a long time.
06/30/08 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT KimJongEel
dumdums should know that keys don't matter in world of equal temperament
06/30/08 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT tmns
i am stuck inside c and g, and cannot escape.
06/30/08 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT electrodan
eyesnine said: "
strangus said: "What's the pastense of shotput?"
shatput"
LOL
06/30/08 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT monty
i just checked
mine says "YALE"
06/30/08 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT goguru
Personally I prefer putting attention on the scales I use rather then the keys. Learn how to modulate between scales and also between keys (exemple : with secondary dominants chords). If you do so, you won't be repetitive and your music will be way richer. What I often do when I compose with a guitar is that I use a capo to transpose what I just wrote to see in which key it best fits. On piano you can't do that but you can always transpose midi sequences to see what you prefer. You can always try to write a piece, copy/paste it, transpose it (a few semi-tones, 5th or 4th and their relative minor scales) and try to find a way to do a smooth transition. Then you can change the melody and you have a lazy ass nice modulation.... I have a lot of fun doing these kind of experiments with midi sequences.
06/30/08 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT yawn
i have no idea! you tell me!
06/30/08 + EDIT | PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT eyesnine
KimJongEel said: "dumdums should know that keys don't matter in world of equal temperament"
i used to think like this when i was composing strictly for sine wave additive synths (my minimal phase), but hecanjog addressed why key does matter... because of the different resonances of different instruments. now that i'm into multi-sampling acoustic instruments i pay close attention to keys. also, this is an important thing to remember when using resonant filters, reverbs and the like. a key change can bring out a surprisingly different character from the instrument you're using, virtual, analog or acousitc.
06/30/08 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT KimJongEel
dumdum should realize that KimJongEel is a joke persona
06/30/08 + EDIT | PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT eyesnine
my apologies, dear leader. so who is the man behind the name?
electrodan said: "
eyesnine said: "
strangus said: "What's the pastense of shotput?"
shatput"
LOL"
i gave myself the giggles with that one! actually, i think shotput is its own past tense. shotputted? shotplaced? maybe shootput is the present tense? english is a strange language. i like the bipolar nature of this thread!
06/30/08 + EDIT | PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT eyesnine
also, for people more advanced in music theory, its worth figuring out some of the relationships between pentatonic and seven note (septatonic?) scales. you can do things like using common pentatonics to transition between different scales, and come up with interesting harmonies (chord progressions) that force the melody to change scales. sometimes i wish i was one of those people with encyclopedic memories that could remember all the different neat transitions, instead of having to figure it out every time. then again, sometimes i think its a good idea to figure stuff like that out a lot just to get practice, and find new stuff every once in a while.
06/30/08 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT dkarma
shotput is a noun...nouns don't have tense...
that's like asking what's the past tense of cat?
'sides everyone knows it's shotpooted
06/30/08 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT dkarma
as for the real thread...screw keys just do what i do : Jab the c key in different rhythms then find a really screechy pad and jab the c key some more...add bass drum ...perfect.
07/01/08 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT ejectorset
i guess i tend to do modal stuff, because i play a lot on white keys, but not in c major.
07/02/08 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT dylan
i like modality. if you are playing in C for example, instead of starting on the root C, try starting and ending on D. There you go, you have D Dorian.
07/02/08 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT dylan
eyesnine said: "its worth figuring out some of the relationships between pentatonic and seven note (septatonic?) scales "
a seven note scale is called a diatonic scale
07/02/08 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT dylan
D Dorian by the way is treated as D minor (melodic, with a raised 6th and 7th). But if you want to be technical about it, it is really in C (i.e. it shares all of the pitches of C major). Also, you can take the fifth in the key of C as the root (G), and you have a Mixolydian mode. Its like G major with a dominant (flat) 7. MODES ARE FUN!!
07/02/08 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT goguru
You should all take a look at Olivier Messiaen's modes of limited transposition. They are really rich and you can make unusual chords progressions, since there is more then 7 notes in a couple of them. I really like the 2nd mode which goes : 1-b2-b3-3-b5-5-6-b7. Treated well you can do some sweat accessible tunes with a contemporary sounding edge. What I usually do is that I first look at which types of chords I can produce with these scales.
07/02/08 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT astroid
i wish i could answer this question without an avalanche of pedantry, but it gets really massively convoluted in my brain, from thinking about this for the better part of 15 years.
some personal ideas-
tonality is pretty well picked over, so you tend to dredge up a lot of associations from the past couple hundred years of 'common practice'. it's not neccesarily bad, but good to remember
bitonality is a little less of a prison. some easy ways to get into that are by making a major chord with a different root-like the things that are called 'slash chords' in jazz (ie. spelled from the bottom, Ab C E G-you can call that an Ab major 7th chord, but if you feel the tonic as the C, it makes a whole new set of associations). these, and bitonality in general, tends to lead to much more ambiguous key areas, with more "complex" emotional associations.
meta information about the whole phenomenom of 'key area' is really valuable. why is a 'leading tone' a 'leading tone'? in theory and practice, it's a strong dissonance leading to a strong consonance. in practice, it's usually a major 7th leading to a tonic. knowing that means you can subvert it, extract the idea and use the essence, etc. similar is the idea of tonic/dominant relationships. that really means there's a main area and then a sub area that leads back to the main area in a myriad of ways. extracting the essence from that means that you can think about key in terms of one main area fed by a sub area, or that you can even fuck with that root-like make three key areas that move forward into each other in a triangular relationship. coltrane's 'giant steps' is like that. from that, you can move into the idea of hierarchy in music as it's own ideal-like hindemuth and his hierarchy of tones.
the last idea i think about with key area is how FUCKING ARBITRARY it is in the first place. it does reflect some mathematical realities about vibration, but is really only one of a vast set of systems that could do that. the diatonic system is essentially a compromise between a few things-the reality of consonance and dissonance, the need to have discreet, discernable steps that the human voice can sing. the 12-tone equal temperament system is a further compromise, related to the need to have different instruments play in different ranges, and later, to be able to 'modulate' into other related key areas. -it's an imperfect thing that has been gradually refined and taught as fact over many centuries.
you look at the music of palestrina or other renaissance music, you see that there wasn't so much of a tonic/dominant thing going on, as much as a broader idea of key area that was very fluid and elegant.
all i'm saying is that you might as well see the cage you're in.
07/02/08 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT astroid
MORE DEAR GOD NO
i like to think about key area like this sometimes: you have a horizontal thread which is more reflective of human speech patterns-some 'scales' up and down, maybe some small leaps. you also have a vertical stack at each time reflecting increasing number ratios. small steps are fundamental to speech, but obscure in the vertical realm. likewise, a jump of an octave, then a fifth, and up through the harmonic series is fundamental to vibration, but more obscure in speech. this is the governing tension of almost all human music. FACT.
07/02/08 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT dylan
astroid said: " all i'm saying is that you might as well see the cage you're in. "
traditional music theory has its limitations and it isn't perfect. but as you seem to be suggesting here, it has practical applications. whether i am jamming with friends or trying to compose music, it definitely helps to have some sort of framework for understanding, however limited that framework may be. i don't know if i would characterize these frameworks as 'prisons'. i often think that those who understand these rules, yet have an open enough mind to change them, are more likely to overcome the limitations imposed upon them... but then again there are those who know nothing of theory, and yet still make beautiful music. so it is hard to say for sure.
07/02/08 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT Spark
I think what Astroid is trying to say is.. Work tha Angles.
07/02/08 + PM | QUOTE | PERMALINK | REPORT bla
this is all some weird secret code language to me- i cant understand it
it should be just numbers
harmonics n stuff- ratios- errrr- frequency beats- interferring modulating waves n that | |
Comments
07/11/08
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eyesnine
@bla - using frequencies / harmonic numbers make a lot of sense it certain tunings, like in pythagorean tuning, but in equal temperament tuning they don't really make a whole lot of sense. in pythagorean tuning, using harmonic numbers actually makes a whole lot more sense. maybe you should look into microtuning.
07/11/08
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bla
im currently using a tx81z which lets you set up your own tunings but i havent yet used that function (lazy brain)
07/12/08
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utofbu
I used to set up custom tunings, then the perfect pitch friends I had mobbed me and made me stop.
I then slayed them in the heat of battle.
and I am free to modify slendro if I want.
07/12/08
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astroid
something else i play with a lot:
stacks of strong consonances that don't neccesarily sum to major or minor modes can be compelling. for instance, lots of emo music uses the double stack of perfect fifths (spelled C G D for example). from the standpoint of tonality, that's kind of ambiguous because it doesn't have a third, but it's very very consonant.
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