Electronic Music 411 - pd or max/msp?

07/20/08 + ssb0

what are actuall differences nowadays?
i'm a total noob when it comes to programming but i really wan't to learn because i have a couple of ideas i can't realise in live.
so i was interested in max but i totally can't afford it. and then i saw pd(pure data).
is it so hard to learn that i would be better of sticking that time into working for an actual boss to make the money for max/msp or aren't the differences that big?
i wan't to use it for live sampling purposes(easy sampling of musicians and easy messing with that audio). maybe their are people using pd for that who can tell me more?

07/21/08 + slp

One of my favourite features on max was that I could feed into a buffer live and sample from it.

you can do that in bidule too.
also, concerning reaktor,

You have to use core elements to get use sound buffers though which is a bit disappointing.

nope, there is the audio-table module , you dont have to dive into core stuff for this.
BUT, if you want to do sample-accurate stuff with the buffers , you have to. BUT , in Max, if youd want to do that, you'd have to code your own external afaik. so in the end, for live sampling, it really doesnt matter imo. all can do it

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07/21/08 + packetst0rm

@slp

I'm still learning reaktor so that is some useful info. I'll look into that this evening! I never got on with bidule just couldnt get on with it like I can with reaktor or max/msp. That is just personal preference mind.

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07/21/08 + zifcak

i've spent some time with max and a very little time with pd, and a lot of time with reaktor. max and pd seem similar enough (except the doc maybe) that if i were going to choose one i'd go with pd, just because of the freeness.

when i finally tried reaktor i was blown away. i think because it uses traditional synth/music/midi nomenclature, so i know what to expect from certain modules and how they can work together. it's not as low level as the other two, but you actually can do a ton of math/logic with it if you want. also the relationship between the panel (playing interface) and the structure makes working very efficient for me. i think i would really only use max/pd if i were doing physical computing or something outside the music realm. otherwise, reaktor is plenty deep and low level for my needs, and much faster, which allows me to spend more time actually using the tools i build.

07/21/08 + randal

I think the documentation in pd is actually really good. when I first started using it I didn't realize that you could right click on any object to bring up it's help file, also it took me a while to actually go through the documentation, but it really is pretty helpful, one section in the documentation in pd extended is "intro.txt" under "references" which is just a text file listing all of the really important objects. that one really was in important reference, so I guess you could say its a fault of pd that it was kind of buried in there. also, the online book that miller puckette wrote was very helpful as a manual: link

as far as the program goes, I like pd better because it is actually seems easier to use to me as far as quickly making or deleting objects, max seemed a little awkward, but that was an older version that I tried. pd extended has a pretty interesting library of ready made effects-type objects but probably not as much as max, also max has a huge advantage in looks, which is important, especially the way it bends wires so the don't criss-cross, pd is always just plain black and white only, unless you select things and color them yourself, which is kind of depressing. I'm sure the new max is great, but its pretty expensive, so I say PD.

07/21/08 + RogerRoger

PD is what brought me to em411 back in 2003. There used to be a patch section here. (Among alot of other great stuff that's now gone.)

I stopped using PD regularly in Windows when I discovered that I couldn't use Midi In and Audio In at the same time, plus Midi Out timing, even with just loopback drivers, was crap. I'm sure it's fine for Linux and Mac. As a standalone app not synced to anything however, with just pure audio manipulation and/or input processing, it rules. The object help files and example patches are of great importance to start out with. The direct connections visually between objects can be cleaner if you just get in the habit of using lots of abstractions. These days I mostly use it for one single type of non-realtime audio processing on a single file, such as the "ssb modulation" for moving the pitch of just pure tones around.

My two patches from 2004 are here: link One is a basic generative drummer and the other is a beat slicer, modified from someone else's patch with their permission.

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07/22/08 + cebec

Two of the main reasons I went with Max/MSP over PD or Reaktor are: interface/workflow, which has improved vastly with v. 5, and the fact that I can do FFT, i.e., spectral, stuff, which is something that Reaktor can't do, to my knowledge, without significant low-level hacking.

07/22/08 + lematt

the spectral abilities of Bidule are really impressive too.

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07/24/08 + RogerRoger

cebec said: "the fact that I can do FFT, i.e., spectral, stuff, which is something that Reaktor can't do, to my knowledge, without significant low-level hacking."

Did you try this? link

Recent blogs: Musical Pet Peeves, How do you do it?

07/24/08 + delete

randal said: "the online book that miller puckette wrote was very helpful as a manual: link"

i'm reading this now and i think it's great read for a pd noob like me, it helps with getting your hands dirty quickly. the facts that i set it up in less than half an hour and that it works fine on my linux machine are big advantages.

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07/24/08 + Squeal

HIJOLES!!!!

PD is FREEE

Just download it and get going. FCOL!!

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07/24/08 + Squeal

Oh....

I see you have already realized this.

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07/25/08 + randal

I downloaded the the demo of max/msp 5, because of this thread. so far, it seems pretty cool but it has some quirks that are hard to get used to.

(this post kind of turned into a big long review)

In max you have to specify at every turn if you want an object to be able to use anything but whole numbers. also, it's gui elements like sliders, etc. don't have any features like saving their settings, logarithmic taper, or built in sends and recieves like pd does, yet they are still really complicated to use and change their settings. pd makes that stuff alot easier.

the graphics in max are really nice compared to pd, though, which has almost no color at all and is really kind of subliminally depressing, enough that I stopped messing with it. that's really the biggest advantage of max/msp, superficial or not, visually its pleasant to use. the graphics in max are also kind of a pain slow everything down in weird way, because there are always these subtle mac-like pop-ups, and animations and fades happening which you have to wait for if your computer isn't fast enough. you also have to rely on these animated indicators to make connections and things, so you have to aim your mouse just right or nothing happens, so it's kind of awkward.

what max has on pd, though is it has much more well made objects that you can use to do all kinds of things that would otherwise be patches themselves in pd. all kinds of sample players and graphic displays and so on.

so I'd say that max has much nicer graphic niceties than pd, and more objects and features. it seems like even as a new version, max is still the older sibling of pd, which kind of sums up some if it's downsides. the thing is pd is kind of like a really smart, yet really uncool and physically weak, or possibly autistic younger brother to max/msp. and max/msp is maybe a bit shallow, but really cool, king-of-the-high-school, macking-on-all-the-girls, pinball wizard type. so it is cool, but you need a really fast computer and alot of money. its overpriced is what im saying.

07/25/08 + MattyBoJangl

Pd is what I use. I was a n00b to programming when I began, too. Still am to a degree. I've never tried Max, so I can't tell you which is better.
I wanted to get into Max originally, then heard about Pd and went that route, since it's free, and free, and made from the "same" stuff. It took a few times messing with it before I did anything cool, but once I did, I was hooked. To add to that, looking at the tutes in the Helpfile browser as well as some good websites and a nice book by Miller Puckette and I'm set. Also, it's constantly getting better, since it is community-run. The best thing is to join the Pd-list mailing list and you'll find out about all the changes as they are happening.
I would suggest trying Pd out, since you won't get burned by the price if you decide to change. If you don't like it, you can always go the Max route, but they don't seem much different, and one costs a "bit" more.

07/25/08 + nagrom

1. Max/MSP/Jitter is now $250 for students (full license)
2. Max is now 'better' than Pd with the interface upgrades.
3. If you live in a city or go to a university, I think the most important deciding factor is 'what are the people are you using'? Where I am, everybody at school uses Max, there's a large primarily Francophone Pd community 'out there' in the city, and there are some SC experts in my more immediate network. Max and SC for me then!
4. DesireData <http://artengine.ca/desiredata/> is in the works.

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07/25/08 + lematt

i don't agree: if you just buy max/msp (and not jitter), it's a really fair deal.

Recent blogs: musicians don't know how to spend their money ... hard life, i <3 processing, Ryoji Ikeda