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New Atheism

StoreTags: new, atheism, god, religion, science

Author: nagrom on January 04 2007

Viewed 10757 times. 12 people liked this blog. You can rate it below if you haven't already.

People who enjoyed reading this: emulsion, astroid, cbit, datathinner, soft, Doron, flies, bsr, GregTArtZ, mixedtape, everamzah, nicknotis

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Interview with Sam Harris, author of "The End of Faith".
Basically a very rational argument for questioning, not religious freedom, but the acceptance of religion in society.

Also, if you scroll down a bit, there's an article about the origins of public school, which I implore everybody to read before sending your kids off to be hammered into cubes.

Anybody who was intrigued by the public school blurb, you may be interested in this book on the subject by John Gatto: link (it's free online)

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Comments

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01/05/07 + bsr

yeah, altruism as survival behavior will always always lose out to pure animal fight or flight - it's the stronger instinct when needed. more condensed, less easy to override and more defining of who we are. altruism is nice - but how do you suppose a species gets to the point where that particular trait can evolve? they have to get past the more immediate problem of survival before that luxury trait appears.

01/05/07 + datathinner

bsr said: "they have to get past the more immediate problem of survival before that luxury trait appears."

i think you just pointed out a major cause of suffering right there. we haven't gotten past the matter of economics, even though the tools to do it are here, right in front of us. we have the surplus to do it - but we choose on keeping our economic freedoms in place.

Recent blogs: Obesity and Farm Subsidies, hey! its my studio, mackie satellite

edited: Jan 05 2007 + cbit

astroid said: "what i'm saying is that, if we get rid of one method (or better to say 'style'), another will pop up in it's place. it's pretty much whack-a-mole. "

this is an interesting point i reckon.

Heres my understanding of your suggestion: Religion facilitates war by priming peoples minds to confuse truth with blind faith. Agents cynically abuse peoples faith and gullability in order to gain power. If religion didnt facillitate this, then something would arise in its place that would.

I disagree that something would replace religion to allow these things to happen on an equal scale. If people were taught that there is no virtue in blind faith (the opposite to what the main religions teach now) there would be only reason left as a motivating factor.

Of course people would still act out of self interest and cause suffering, and there would still be all kinds of conflict motivated by other things.. those conflicts already happen (the un-religious atrocities that you mentioned before astroid). But a certain type of war wouldn't be able to happen. In a world of people who's dupeablilty had been dramatically reduced, war makers (religious or not) would have a much harder time finding the footholds they need to secure power.

Here's an interesting section which i think has some relevance here too:

In fact, hard as it may be to believe, humanity as a whole has become much less violent than it used to be. Despite the massive slaughter that resulted from World Wars I and II, the rate of violent death for males in North America and Europe during the twentieth century was one percent. Worldwide, about 100 million men, women, and children died from warrelated causes, including disease and famine, in the last century. The total would have been 2 billion if our rates of violence had been as high as in the average primitive society.

These statistics contradict the myth that war is a constant of the human condition. But they also suggest, contrary to the myth of the noble savage, that civilization has not created the problem of warfare; it is helping us solve it. We need more civilization, not less, if we wish to eradicate war. Civilization has given us legal institutions that resolve disputes by establishing laws, negotiating agreements, and enforcing them. These institutions, which range from local courts to the United Nations, have vastly reduced the risk of violence both within and between nations. They are what keep us from succumbing to the chronic violence that afflicts societies like the Yanomamo.

http://www.science-spirit.org/printerfriendly.php?article_id=474

As i read the 'new atheists' they would probably add the worldwide waning of strong religious belief as a contributing factor to the increasingly peaceful world we live in.

Recent blogs: Cocoa coding query, DIY Monome schematic, Mormo: fly-on-the-wall view of track in progress

01/05/07 + cbit

bsr said: "yeah, altruism as survival behavior will always always lose out to pure animal fight or flight - it's the stronger instinct when needed. more condensed, less easy to override and more defining of who we are. altruism is nice - but how do you suppose a species gets to the point where that particular trait can evolve? they have to get past the more immediate problem of survival before that luxury trait appears."

If i understand correctly you're suggesting that 'animal fight or flight [is] more defining of who we are [than the instinct for altruism]"?

This is a weird conclusion. Even if we accept that there is such a thing as 'who we are' (i don't) ; we live in a society where our fight-or-flight instincts are rarely necessary. Our altruistic tendencies are exercised far more often; so in this setting altruism is more defining of 'who we are'.

Recent blogs: Cocoa coding query, DIY Monome schematic, Mormo: fly-on-the-wall view of track in progress

01/05/07 + bsr

well, we're speaking from a position of luxury, so altruism overrides to maintain the status quo. the whole notion of 'anger' is a survival instinct - to bring out anger in someone involves playing on primal behavior - this is how you can manipulate someone to hate.

01/05/07 + bsr

it is most definitely the stronger trait - which is more important - a fight or flight response or altruism? which do you think a species could lose and still survive?

edited: Jan 05 2007 + datathinner

bsr: i think that depends heavily on the context in which it is applied.

edit:bad zpellings

Recent blogs: Obesity and Farm Subsidies, hey! its my studio, mackie satellite

01/05/07 + dach

Religion is the last remaining institution that's actually recommending we be nice to each other.
The Dark Ages are coming again.

Recent blogs: New studio!, live music videos blog, circuit bending on TV

01/05/07 + datathinner

methinks there are too much oversimplifications in this thread to muster a solid answer. everything has a plus and a minus to it, and depends heavily on the context. "A" most definitely does not always equal "A" in the real world.

Recent blogs: Obesity and Farm Subsidies, hey! its my studio, mackie satellite

01/05/07 + bsr

shorthands and shortcuts are always necessary in discussions and when illustrating points.

edited: Jan 05 2007 + cbit

bsr said: "it is most definitely the stronger trait - which is more important - a fight or flight response or altruism? which do you think a species could lose and still survive?"

in my view a trait we evolved in prehistory as a requisite for survival in prehistoric conditions has nothing to do with 'who we [ultimately, at the heart of it all] are' as you seem to be suggesting. (i'm having a hard time articulating my objection to this..)

Recent blogs: Cocoa coding query, DIY Monome schematic, Mormo: fly-on-the-wall view of track in progress

01/05/07 + cbit

dach said: "The Dark Ages are coming again."

if they are, as some people fear, it's precisely because of religion, not in spite of it.

Recent blogs: Cocoa coding query, DIY Monome schematic, Mormo: fly-on-the-wall view of track in progress

edited: Jan 05 2007 + datathinner

well, maybe not specifically "religion" per se, but definitely ideological conflicts.

edit: man my spelling sucks today

Recent blogs: Obesity and Farm Subsidies, hey! its my studio, mackie satellite

edited: Jan 05 2007 + bsr

it's the foundation all the niceties are built on no? when it comes to the crunch which kicks in? to illustrate - how did george bush and tony blair sell the war to the public? they tried to show that 'the other people' are a threat to you and your family, if you're a conspiracy nut you'd say thats why 9/11 happened, it's exactly the reason blair put the famous 45minute wmd claim in his speech which convinced the nation, it's why bush always talks about 'taking away our freedom' - the language suggest something outside taking something that belongs to you and yours - you might as well be in a tribe of 30 people sitting round a campfire defending your mammoth kill from the hungry tribe down the valley.

edited: Jan 05 2007 + cbit

bsr said: "when it comes to the crunch which kicks in?"

depends entirely on the nature of the crunch! (a situation where you feel compelled to act like the good samaritan did is a 'crunch' too) the idea that fight-flight instinct is somehow more essentially human than the instinct for altruism doesn't hold any water.

Recent blogs: Cocoa coding query, DIY Monome schematic, Mormo: fly-on-the-wall view of track in progress

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