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UK Church and State. Pledgebank

StoreTags: The God Delusio, Church, State, Pledge

Author: cbit on February 12 2007

Viewed 6181 times. 4 people liked this blog. You can rate it below if you haven't already.

People who enjoyed reading this: filarion, soft, PAWEL, daswesen

--> "I will arrange for my MP to receive a copy of Richard Dawkins' book "The God Delusion" but only if 645 other people (one per UK constituency) will do the same for other MPs."

link

This strikes me as a good idea. I'm posting this here in case there's support from other (especially UK) folks who might not have already seen this.

(I'm aware that there are folks who'd rather not read about politics stuff here. I can sympathise, and i'll try to balance this kind of thing with primarily music related posts too)

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Read cbit's other blogs.cbit's Recent Blogs

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Comments

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02/14/07 + everamzah

bite, bitch, bite

Recent blogs: i made three songs in two days., Fuck Holiday Spirit, the state of #em411

02/14/07 + soft

dick and arse licking between 2 blokes would be considered full on homo-erotic foreplay over here
maybe flirting means something different in US of A?

and JFTR my tongue was on your dick...it was my nose in your arse

Recent blogs: stranded in berlin!!, STFU arrangements Heidelberg, i joined the darkside

02/14/07 + bsr

cbit said: 'The point, since you asked, is to emphasize the message that religious belief shouldn't be accorded any more respect than we accord any other belief that's held without sufficient evidence (and needless to say, this has political implications). But at the moment religious beliefs are treated with kid gloves, and in many cases society differs to irrational religious convictions. I'd rather not discussing that here again though.'

sorry to keep badgering on with this issue, but you keep badgering for it so i suppose they cancel out. the incredibly irritating thing about this point of view is that it's lacks any empathy with people who believe and take their belief seriously. the 'we' you talk about includes people who's whole life is built around something you don't agree with - you think they're irrational - so what? it does (and in my view, should) accord respect because the belief you proudly belittle is important to them, and 'them' is a lot of people - more people believe than don't - it's disrespectful to be so glib about the whole thing.

you don't know you're right any more than they do (for reasons that have been discussed to death - and the afterlife

)

in terms of religion affecting policy - the church has just been denied exclusion from a new policy that forbids any organisation from discriminating against homosexuality - despite their attempts to be excluded, and that was without a bunch of books being sent to mp's, the result of this well meaning legislation is that many catholic charities will find themselves unable to operate as they currently do - they currently don't help same-sex couples adopt - the new law will make this illegal and they may have to close down altogether. people are predictable and nasty and it's easy to foresee that somebody with an agenda will test it and it'll be all over the news.

i believe peoples beliefs should be respected and taken seriously, i get so wound up with the lack of empathy i see here.

edited: Feb 14 2007 + cbit

bsr said: "i believe peoples beliefs should be respected and taken seriously, i get so wound up with the lack of empathy i see here."

Should the belief in witchcraft be respected?
Should the belief that the white man is superior to the negro be respected?
Should the belief that the world is flat be respected?

I find it hard to believe you'd think so.

I know you don't agree with the conclusion of the god delusion (despite not having read it(?)). I don't particularly want to argue that out again though.

If you believe a truth claim is preposterous and false (as i think religious truth claims are), i don't think it's possible to be both intellectually honest AND to respect that belief (though you can still respect the people who hold it).

Recent blogs: Song for Two Mega Sites, Probably no God: buses in london, My Arduinome (monome clone)

02/14/07 + bsr

if you respect a person you respect their beliefs - and their right to believe it.

re: the god delusion - neither do i, that's why i said we'd debated that to death.

i'd disrespect someone who's racist - are you saying a well meaning religious person should be treated the same as a racist because you think they're both wrong? or do you disrespect anyone who's religious. you seem to be mocking the idea in your first paragraph and then saying something different in the last. for a lot of people if you disrespect their beliefs you disrespect them - you seem to think people won't mind you mocking their beliefs because you respect THEM. you can't separate the two.

i respect peoples belief - i can understand that they believe and i respect that and think it would be wrong to force my lack of belief on them.

02/14/07 + bsr

re-reading the last paragraph it's clear that you disrespect any belief that you personally don't hold to be true - that's bizarre - who made you omniscient?

edited: Feb 14 2007 + cbit

bsr: it really would help if you had read the god delusion. You're jumping to incorrect conclusions about it's content (which might explain your hostility towards this whole idea). In a nutshell: nowhere does TGD, or this 'pledge' campaign advocate disrespect of people because of their religious beliefs. The forcing of one's beliefs on others is also not advocated (no, i don't see sending the book to my mp as forcing my belief on him)

bsr said: "if you respect a person you respect their beliefs - and their right to believe it."

No. If you respect a person you certainly respect their right to believe what they want but you certainly don't respect any particular belief they may hold purely by virtue of them holding it. (if you disagree then perhaps i don't understand what you mean by 'respecting someones belief').

bsr said: "i'd disrespect someone who's racist"

Then we differ greatly here. In my view it's the ideas that racism is founded on that are worthy of disrespect and not necessarily the people who hold them (a group including my grandparents for instance.. probably yours too).

bsr said: "re-reading the last paragraph it's clear that you disrespect any belief that you personally don't hold to be true - that's bizarre - who made you omniscient?"

then a re-re-reading is in order..

cbit said: "If you believe a truth claim is preposterous and false (as i think religious truth claims are), i don't think it's possible to be both intellectually honest AND to respect that belief (though you can still respect the people who hold it)."

I don't disrespect _any_ belief i don't hold to be true. But i certainly can't respect the ones which seem both preposterous and untrue.

Recent blogs: Song for Two Mega Sites, Probably no God: buses in london, My Arduinome (monome clone)

02/14/07 + bsr

like i said, this opinion lacks empathy - from the perspective of the person you deem yourself to be respecting, by not being respectful of their faith you'd be being disrespectful to them. you seem unable to see things from their perspective or understand this point. i think we have some fundamental differences about what we think is morally correct.

the last paragraph assertion holds true - who are you to decide what's correct and what isn't? you just believe what you read in a book, same as lots of other people who believe differently to you, they read it, evaluated, decided it made sense to them just like you did.

i find your opinion strange as you've clearly given it some thought, to come to a conclusion i find distasteful is strange - but isn't it great that people are allowed to be different?

02/14/07 + soft

maybe we have different definitions of the word 'respect'.

Recent blogs: stranded in berlin!!, STFU arrangements Heidelberg, i joined the darkside

02/14/07 + bsr

no, i think that meaning is clear - the issue is can you separate a person from their beliefs.

02/14/07 + cbit

bsr said: "but isn't it great that people are allowed to be different?"

yes

i'm glad to be living in this part of the world.

bsr said: "the last paragraph assertion holds true - who are you to decide what's correct and what isn't?"

I have every right to decide what i think is true and what isn't, and i have the right to try to persuade others about it too! (they of course have the right to not listen, and/or remain unpersuaded).

bsr said: "like i said, this opinion lacks empathy - from the perspective of the person you deem yourself to be respecting, by not being respectful of their faith you'd be being disrespectful to them. you seem unable to see things from their perspective or understand this point. i think we have some fundamental differences about what we think is morally correct."

My lack of belief in the existence of god has nothing to do with empathy or lack of it.

By laughing at someone who'd just lost their faith i'd be showing lack of empathy.. but not by simply not believing in god.

Heres how i see what i'm doing:

I believe X to be almost certainly untrue. So when i find people making choices that affect me based on the assumption that X is true, i try to change their mind about it by sharing the insights i think i have into the matter with them.

What do you think: Should i remain silent instead? or do you have another option in mind?

Recent blogs: Song for Two Mega Sites, Probably no God: buses in london, My Arduinome (monome clone)

edited: Feb 14 2007 + bsr

yes, please remain silent! - you could be wrong. i don't like religious people who try and convert non believers either. i remember when dawkins first anti-religious rant was on tv a good while ago, jeremy paxman was the subject of a tv programme on another channel: link - i remember thinking at the time how much more sane, lucid and human paxmans statement was compared to the excitable, slightly deranged, dawkins (thinking back, i remember now we had a discussion on this very matter on the hippocamp forum)

'yes i'm glad to be living in this part of the world.' - but if you had your wish we'd all be thinking the same thing, you'd replace one set of enforced beliefs with your own based on your particular convictions!

02/14/07 + soft

bsr said: "
no, i think that meaning is clear - the issue is can you separate a person from their beliefs.
"

of course you can!

i meant the 'disrespecting someones beliefs' thing.

how exactly does one disrespect ones beliefs??

i dont think its disrespectful to say "i think what you believe is wrong, this is how i see it...."
do you?
i could say that sort of thing to a christian freind and i dont think they would see me as disrespectful.

Recent blogs: stranded in berlin!!, STFU arrangements Heidelberg, i joined the darkside

02/14/07 + bsr

some yes, others no.

02/14/07 + cbit

soft said: "how exactly does one disrespect ones beliefs??"

i'm confused about this too.

someone believes the world is flat. what does it mean to respect that belief?

Recent blogs: Song for Two Mega Sites, Probably no God: buses in london, My Arduinome (monome clone)

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