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I started this as a comment in bla's blog about doing shit the hard, stupid way, but decided to expand the idea to its own rant/blog/whine.
Every time I've listened to cbit,ml,delta,implexgrace,lowlifi,nq,adjective,albatrocity or, really just alot of you who create these sounds and tracks I just cannot figure out, I think I MUST be doing shit the hard, stupid way, and even if I weren't, it would still take more time and devotion to finish one track than I have to spare. I usually spend the four to six hours I can alot per week just getting a melody or wrestling with the technology, and lose the spark and give up. I have about 3 hours of recorded melody and bassline ideas saved as impromptu clips from just the last year, since I posted that gearpron blog. I also have a few saved sequences going back 8 years that are all between 20 seconds and a minute, and they each took days to get to that point.
Some of you peeps here should hold classes for money on how to do this stuff right, with a curriculum, demos, assignments and so forth. By the end, I would be able to use the tools in the class to make compositions without once getting lost or stuck. There could probably be one style per course. I'd pay for that, seriously. If you were worried about giving up trade secrets, consider it a motivator to come up with new sounds and teach the old, standard stuff.
It reminds me of learning Linux or Unix: There's often only one way to get the shell to do what you want in a certain situation, and you could spend years learning the OS and never get enough of it down to make it work for you completely, whereas you can find your way around windows or OSX in one sitting. Just to get one command to work, sometimes you have to read and read and read and read and read and read and read and you finally find that what you needed ends up being a difference of three characters from what you origianlly typed.
If someone had been standing over your shoulder and you'd asked one simple question, hours or even days would not be lost.
This whole music thing is just like that for me, mostly in terms of technique for generating timbres I hear in music posted here, but also to a great degree on sequencing and producing non-repetitive drums that sound good. If someone stood behind me and said "You start with this drum loop, easily found online, and run it through this chain of free plugins to get this specific sound, then use this magic thingy to chop it up" then I could apply it and better focus on how to creatively arrange it into a track. Maybe it would change later, but it's part of the process, and impedes progress until the task is done.
I spend copious amounts of time either trying to get something simple that doesn't sound like ass or trying and often failing just to get the software to cooperate. It isn't fair that you spend all this money and the software crashes or doesn't work like expected, yet it's overwhelming with all the possibilities and directions to go when it works.
Timing is a big, big problem for me, even with some jittery plugins, and especially when trying to sync two apps together when both vendors were too arrogant or incompetent to allow their product to be a Rewire slave. Most importantly, Midi jitter and latency from the external devices can make life miserable, and you start to imagine timing problems that aren't even there.
I can see how those of you who only possess a PC and a controller, and use one main sequencing application, with an arsenal of plugins, can get so much done. But even then, I constantly hear things posted here that sound like if I tried to do them, they would take two lifetimes to finish. So many notes, so many events, and how much of it was done by hand versus not? And "I know that that sound there resembles a snare, but how did it get that way?", and on and on. I just get angry that I don't understand how it was done, and possibly because I know I would never have the time to do it right. I start trying to reverse-engineer little tidbits from all the different posts into my own ideas, and just get frustrated. This has been going on since I first noticed em411 in June 2003.
It's clear there is a new breed of virtuoso, as evidenced by RDJ,Tom Jenkinson,etc. whose proficiency lies in manipulating software to compose and produce, and in comparison, maybe I'm the chimpanzee with my typewriter. But I can't help thinking there are just some key techniques and ideas that no one mentions because they take them for granted, yet I've never even thought to try them, despite reading posts here regularly for five years. I've asked people on this forum how they did this or that before, and usually people either don't remember, or it's too complex to explain. But I have to wonder how many of those people ever read books, took classes or the like. More than likely, this modern method of composition and production is mostly self-taught for nearly everyone who tries it and succeeds.
I know, I know. Just get in there and do it with no expectations right? If it sounds like ass, then at least you had fun, right? I've made piles of infantile,amateur tripe for 11 years now, and nearly all of it is incomplete. I want to do something I can actually publish and be proud of. Not for once: For good. | |
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06/11/08
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RogerRoger
I'm going back to page 3 to catch up on responses. I must warn ahead of time, some of this is just my meager pathetic whining, but to that end, is venting of frustration, and thus theraputic. Peruse with discretion.
@papergoose:
I had a similar idea about shortcuts. I think the final product should be polished in post, but during composition, inferior "placeholders" will conserve whatever creative energy I might have, so long as I can envision the finall outcome. An example would be using a VSTi in place of the analogs until time to record.
@cbit
Firstly, I am humbly honored you have given away some techniques from Gang Gene. That one and "Hero Never Rests" continue to be my favorites of yours. I remember asking you about it before, and the crux of it was that it was done one measure at a time(slogging away), which sounds scary to me, but somehow invigorating if you are able to imagine what comes next as you build. I actually did this once upon a time on an Apple II GS running "Music Contruction Set" about 14 years ago. It used actual 8 bit samples and had god awful aisling for pitched notes, but was pretty intuitive for just drag and drop notes on a score editor. It was thrilling not knowing what I was going to do in the next measure. Not that it was all that impressive when finished. A reference point for the future, perhaps.
@Fredo
I'd agree that the only way I can do it is my way, but I've wasted so much time now and not come up with much. I think I'm just being greedy. If I had started music and stayed with it when I was 12 instead of quiting, who knows where I'd be today? I'm actually having trouble facing the reality that I will never have enough time or devotion to sound like my music idols. But the flip side of that is whatever I do create will be my own, and something I can say I accomplished in life, and hopefully enjoyed doing. Even if it is simple.
@nightowl
nightowl said: "sometimes, your conscious mind can get in the way of free inspiration"
My problem, I think, is somewhat different. I have no musical "memory". I do not retain what I hear that inspires me. Therefore when I go to the keys, I just noodle and record it. I would think this is the definition of free inspiration, but there must be more organization or at least preparation, and I believe this is where I had been drawing the line as being "work". It's really a question of motivation and memory for me. I have to work my 8 hours each weekday, and cannot be distracted by creative inspirations, although they sometimes happen anyway. I am sadly forced to shut them out. When I get the chance to sit in my studio, assuming I've got some mental energy bubbling to begin with, that inspiration is usually gone. I mentioned I currently only use about 4-6 hours per week on music, and this is partly due to fatigue from work, but also the aforementioned lack of creative energy. I think a change in priorities is in order to repair this weakness. At least I'm narcotic-free and not married.
@pextris
pextris said: "Experience comes from making tons of bad music and sweeping it under the rug"
I think there's something beneath that though, primarily that one has an obsession of sorts about getting it right, and ultimately has a vision, be it a static one or one constantly in flux. I have nothing, nada. I have "play until it sounds good and better have recorded it because I'll never remember it otherwise." It's like I have creative amnesia.
@indoor
The "concept of sound" philosophy, by limiting the quantity of available tools and knowing those tools inside and out, is one I've attempted before, but I was left not enjoying the final outcome if the gear was limited in scope. I am not Tom Jenkenson, mainly because I am not insane, but mostly because I can only hold one thought in my head at a time and do not have the mental energy equivalent of a pack of beavers building a dam out of kindling. ie. I found it too mentally challenging and lost creative focus. The one mixit I tried, I ended up breaking the rules for that month, and layed down two audio tracks buried in tons of delays. Just lazy, now that I look back, but I felt exhausted just getting that far. I did like the final track though.
@deltasleep
on collabortation with a partner: I've toyed with the idea often and like it very much. Yesterday I was thinking about how some of you were jokingly calling me "whore" due to my gear, and thought maybe I should take that as "floozy" instead and offer to have people send me .als or midi files to record 24 bit tracks on my gear and send it back to them. Assuming the requests aren't overwhelming, of course. It would naturally take demos of patches and the like ahead of time, but is a strong possibility using the web. The point would be for me to learn how people use tracks, and give them a chance to contribute tracks recorded with gear they may not be able to afford or would rather wisely spend their money elsewhere.
Also, a full on collab would be great if anyone wants to try me out. I'm really hoping to learn whatever I can in what limited time per week I have. As I've said countless times, I have hours and hours of noodling. I can send versions of any of it with or without the mistakes. 
@implexgrace
Abstract thinking, and bridging the gap between it and, to quote Zappa, "forcing your will on unsuspecting air molecules" is currently something I need to work more on. I hear too much in my head at once and cannot isolate things. I think this could be resolved with experience making more music, so I need the experience first.
And finally, I've decided what I want to do first: A cover of a techno tune, the title track from this album: link
It sounds like something I could compose in a few hours, and perhaps polish in post over a weekend. The hard part might be getting the needed samples first. Once it's done, or maybe even when I am still building, I will of course post it here in anticipation of the great criticism this forum is renowned for.
Thanks again all for your insightfull and generous responses.
Zane Whitaker(aka RogerRoger,Solderman,stungunone depending on the forum)
06/11/08
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astroid
well good news about musical memory-you can definitely improve that.
06/11/08
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ignatius
anecdote: last night i swapped the end and middle of a track and it now makes 100% more sense. so.. don't be afraid to make multiple versions/edits and just save them all as different files. i think i can actually finish this damn song now.. then it can go up on the "this song has no home" download part of my site and i can get to work on an album project already!
also, you are anything but a gear whoo-ur/floozy. you would need at least a dozen more synths.
06/12/08
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RogerRoger
Thank You, ignatius. I've had tracks where I liked one part of the song but the other was lame, yet just removing it would make it sound incomplete. Maybe move the good part to the beginning and fix the other part.
That reminds me of a technique Zappa was using, since we've discussed various "tricks", called Xenochrony. link
Since I have all of these improv sessions from the past year, I've thought about doing this, with today's pitching and stretching technology, it seems like it would be easy. I wanted to ask if anyone had tried this, and if so, what sort of pitfalls would I expect?
06/19/08
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RogerRoger
Ok, so I'm already finding the ordeal frustrating and stupid, but as had been said, patience will carry me far. I've mostly just learned I don't know shit about Ableton live.
Just got web hosting too, although no domain name yet. I did this techno thingy June 17th that is basically progressive but repetitive with SH101 tweaks: link
All I can think is "Needs More". But what, who dafuck knows. Gonna need lots more compression too.
If you can download it, tell me if I'm jumping into this the wrong way. No really, I can take it.
06/19/08
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astroid
do you want my opinions?
06/19/08
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RogerRoger
Absolutely. PM me if it's really that bad. After one day's work, I'm already at this point of going, is this even worth keeping?
06/19/08
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astroid
it sounds like a start-two ideas rendered with some care.
so you decide what the second step is. mine would be "do i like this?". if no, i'd put it aside for later; if yes, i'd ask what i could do to put some meat on it.
if this piece were mine, i'd be looking at stacking beat elements. while i was doing that, i'd be keeping an eye on that bass to make sure it wasn't overpowering things. once there was a strong beat pounding that bass, i'd be looking at tonal elements, and maybe processing, depending upon how i felt about it.
the toughest thing during all of that is what i've heard called 'killing your darlings'. meaning, really trying to see the bigger picture of things and adjusting your hard work to that bigger picture.
06/19/08
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astroid
re: the time sig stuff you have going
i'd find little ways to gently guide the listener through your rather complex beat structure. in my experience, this is really trial and error, but try to be simple, as simple as possible. as it is now, i can't sing anything, can feel the repetition, but can't easily count it.
you have that whole glorious high range to make the structure clear. like "boop beeep badoop boop.... boop beeep badoop boop" and then something to recontextualize that-like a string pad maybe, and then
BOOM switcheroo, second section related to the first, another bass, another key, two more beat elements and a different side of the time sig thing.
alllll trial and error. you can do it!
06/19/08
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RogerRoger
Okie, beat first, I have to agree. I don't like the repetition at all. And I edited this down just to post it to keep people from falling asleep. Taking those live tweak tracks and cutting them up into the usable parts is going to be a bitch, but probably worth it.
And I realise some of the notes are flat. It was a random draw in the Midi editor. This is just sort of a test to see exactly what you have described: How to fan out from a couple of starter tracks. Much thanks!!
06/19/08
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astroid
mmm
i've done that before, kind of carelessly making a structure to fill out later. i do that less now. a good solid, simple structure, even if its alien or whatever, if it has a good internal logic (which i don't think your little render is lacking btw), makes for a much easier fattening process.
06/20/08
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daswesen
I think that's one of the things I came to discover on my "going minimal" trip: simplicity always wins. In the case of the techno stuff, that means: don't be afraid to put the booom tssi clap tssi on almost every pattern, cause that's what will bring out the one or two "personality" elements so much more. There was this thing that I was scared by simplicity before, but for a lot of things I think it just works.
Also, I found I definitely work best when I have intense limitations on what I can do. If I have only two sounds and 3 trakcs in my ableton, and limit myself to those, that's when I came up with the best things. Moving to the drummachine was just a way to make sure I would be very limited. And now, 8 months later, I'm still discovering awesome new things in that limited framework.
06/20/08
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cbit
Its like a choose your own adventure book! so here would be my next steps (not necessarily a recommendation that they should be yours):
Bring the rhythmic structure into sharper relief by using accents on the Ones (or other important beats). By accents i mean one-off sounds with some percussive quality to them. And in this case i'm thinking of sounds with long tails which will glue things together nicely. A blast of something or other, through a feedbacky delay/flanger, put through a compressor designed to emphasise the attack transient.
Mess around with effect chains and sample the results. import that sample and experiment with how parts of it can complement what you already have.
Think about which percussive hits would benefit from some kind of ramp leading up to them, like a little fanfare! and which ones would be good to really emphasise with a long-tailed smash.
Listening through what you've got, think about a 'next part', and treat everything in your sequencer as material that can be stolen from/sampled in order to create it (for me its very helpful if everything is an audio file at this point). Don't be afraid to scrap something if its not working. Or even better, slap some more automated effects on it and make it into a sample you can splice and reuse.
Do you head west towards the dark forest? turn to 254
06/20/08
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bla
that track sounds alright so far- a little bit empty but its groovy enough
id add some funky hi hats and a couple of variations to the kick just when the synth goes higher
06/20/08
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RogerRoger
Thank you all for the tips. That temp render is unfortunately all I'm going to have done for about 3 weeks while I move into my new house. But once the studio is back up, I'll proceed with due diligence. I will probably post some old stuff at the web hosting in the meantime.
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