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Author: rjtuna on July 01 2008 Viewed 1338 times. 11 people liked this blog. You can rate it below if you haven't already.
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Maybe I've been playing with my sy77 too much, but recently I have been having thoughts that are like sounds. I guess this opposed to most internal dialogs, that are in English, in my head.
I was wondering if anybody else has sound thoughts? I guess it kinda relates to people who are multi lingual, who speak one language, and think in another, which I have always found interesting. I speak english, and I'm thinking in fm?
rj
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07/01/08
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eyesnine
autopoesis is an interesting idea, and field of study... however, it is an incomplete description of the mind. evolutionary psychology clearly contradicts this thesis. why else do we understand the world in the terms we do other than that they have positive survival value? are we self creating, or were we created with a purpose?
autopoesis seems to be an attempt to mystify the nature of the mind, as many have tried to do in the past, in order to lend magical and unique qualities to "living" organisms as opposed to inanimate objects. these boundaries do not need to be created, and it is more enlightening, i find, to be able to draw parallels between the evolution of a "living" organism, and the evolution of a galaxy, for example.
maybe i don't understand the concept fully, or maybe wikipedia doesn't explain it properly, but a lot of my artistic process is based on the idea that it is advantageous to demystify the creative process and to come up with concrete techniques in order to produce unique ideas. part of this process is in recognizing that:
a) my ideas come from the outside world, experience and experimentation are better sources of "inspiration" than pure self analysis.
b) all i can do is reformulate what is given to me (this is where the self analysis part happens). kurt vonnegut described creativity as the ability to juxtapose i.e. to consider two ideas simultaneously, and to draw parallels between them.
this has worked for me in the past, and it describes a recursive system of experience and absorption, which is alike to the process of waking and sleeping life.
while a complex system can seem to be self aware as the internal processes become overwhelmingly intricate and pervasive, the system can never escape its origin as a created system, rather than self created (with the possible exception of the universe as a whole). also, no system is immune to the influence of unexpected external factors (with the same exception). also, it is worth noting that no system can be perfectly self aware (again, with the same possible exception).
i think it is more enlightening to think of the mind as a runaway recursive system, that, yes, grows and organizes, and reorganizes, but also one that was created with more limitations than we would like to admit to ourselves.
07/01/08
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eyesnine
also, the brain definitely has inputs and outputs. what do you suppose your eyes are for other than to get information to your brain?!?! what do you suppose the function of the rest of your central nervous system is?
i think i don't understand what you're saying at all!
07/01/08
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rjtuna
thanks for all the responses! i think its a really interesting subject, here's some exegetical diarrhea
" And maybe that's part of the pleasure and freedom of music - it strips away that layer of language which tends to be more utilitarian. "
I think this is a valid point. I must admit, I have been extremely relaxed recently, mostly because I spent a month painting, for a show,
link
and when I was wasnt painting, I was playing with sy77, trying to figure out fm, the thoughts that I were having were like grey noise clouds, with some fractal ossiclations that only happen for a shimmer of a second. they tend to be kind like exclamation points, or pauses.
" always have little melodies or rhythms in my head," well that not really what i'm talking about, thats seems to be or mimetic exercise, which is cool cognitive process, and perhaps more fundenmental extroverted social activities...
"organizing and sharing thoughts." and also creating economic viablity through language, my thought sounds are not very marketable but talking about them is...
"also: in sound thoughts i clearly separate textures/timbral stuff, melodic stuff (and THAT have to do with language and culture), and rythms/structures (same > cultural)."
I agree with this. and would like to point allude to intoxication of new stimulus, that is from the texture timbral meshes, that new stimulus is forged, and ultimately desired.
"Baudrillard, Adorno or Deleuze" well awhile ago, i read this guys, and talked to people that had also read them, then i got a sampler. and stopped reading. athough i liked deluze-guttari the most.
"semantics and syntax" you've already lost me, the process of communication should be simpler, not more complex, but i guess i'm in the middle of rhetoric as I write this so, but I really am not arguing anything, and anytime semantics and syntax comes up, those are fighting words.
"are completely metaphysical" i think that through my programming and understanding of the sy77, i started to unlock little phenemona that was probably already there, see buddy just unlocked the sign and the signifier dichotomy, so know i am in the rabbit hole of logic....breathe...
if all personal unfixed thought phenomenons was metaphysical, that why do we need organized religion?
"mind is like light through a crystal" is that crystal only exists for one joule per sub nanosecond, that i buy that for nickel.
"my ear is generating the noises," but you are listening? I too have problems with white noise, and here all sorts of patterns. I also am woken up by the sound of my own heart beating, with the white noise, i too feel as though its a result of listing to harmonics too much, and not paying attention to the fundamentals.
"autopoietic" you've just made a simple thing more complicated.
07/01/08
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rjtuna
continuing on to page 2
"evolutionary psychology" I don't know if I'm evolving? could be devolving. I'm more of a time is energy kinda guy, i prefer big universals, as opposed little stabs at truth in order to get government funding as it relates to the political climate....
"also, the brain definitely has inputs and outputs. what do you suppose your eyes are for other than to get information to your brain?!?! what do you suppose the function of the rest of your central nervous system is?
i think i don't understand what you're saying at all!"
i don't understand what you're saying.
07/01/08
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eyesnine
examples maybe? quickly, i promise.
i study math at school and when i'm working on a math problem i'm conceptualizing. i don't talk out the problem so much as try to form a picture of it in my head. same thing with music. when i want to change chords i imagine what the next chord will be and then hopefully my hands co operate and i end up playing that chord. there's no english involved. how could there be? of course you can think sounds! if you can hear them you can think them, that's basic perception. you've never noticed this before?
well, at least you read what people were writing. and responded! i've gone off on blogs before where that hasn't happened. what kind of answer are you looking for anyways?
07/01/08
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rjtuna
discussion leading to truth
07/01/08
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eyesnine
well, thats what i thought i was offering... understood or otherwise
i go to sleep now! it was a good blog.
07/02/08
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lematt
would like to point allude to intoxication of new stimulus
yes that's really true. it's kind of a non-stop process in which desire/curiosity has a massive role.
07/02/08
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xLefr
Boing!
Usually when I feel good. Also, GF has pointed out that I use sounds to express stuff. Whistles and clicks and stuff like BÆNG or FLOINKS.
07/02/08
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lematt
yeah when i whistle, generally it's to express that i had enough. 
07/02/08
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j_chot
VOICES DON'T COUNT, HUH?
I became a much better song writer when I learned to write melodys in my head rather than with my fingers
07/05/08
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bew
Intertesing stuff - I've just returned to my old job in a school of music and I find that my thoughts wonder into/onto sound often when I'm in the office. Now I have a few extra things to think about.
07/06/08
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nagrom
There is no channel through which some substance or information travels _untouched_ into your brain. With a computer, data comes from the internet, from the keyboard, the mouse, etc. and is used in processing _directly_. In the human body, light, for instance hits the eye, but the light does not directly travel into the brain. Nor does the "information" contained in the light field/stream travel directly into your brain. What comes into the brain is what comes out of the other end of the rods and cones in your eye (and there's more than that, for example geometrical factors). In this sense the brain has no inputs in the way that a computer has inputs. It's more useful to say that the brain is "perturbed". You can imagine a finger pressing into the skin. Clearly the finger is not 'an input' in that case.
07/06/08
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nagrom
Also, if autopoiesis contradicts evolutionary psychology, then evolutionary psychology is wrong (IMO). The enactivists rely on a quite bulletproof account of evolution. I'd like to know what the conflict is.
And, yes, understanding what autopoiesis means from the Wikipedia entry is hopeless. PM me and I can send you some pdf's.
07/06/08
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eyesnine
some information DOES flow directly into the brain. we do this through systems of symbols. this is what mathematics and language are based on. your definition of information is spurious. the medium of exchange is not equivalent to the message. do you suppose the light along a fiber optic cable flows directly into a processor that processes electrons? the information flowing into the computer is also indirect, by your defintion. the electrons are merely "perturbed". you're making a black and white argument in a world of shades of grey.
evolutionary psychology accounts for why living organisms retain behaviours over generations. your brain is hardwired to think in a certain way. the structures for understanding langauge are present in the brain before you have heard a single word. similarly for structures involving the perception of sound, and vision. do you suppose that a three dimensional perception of the world is the only valid representation? its not, thats just how your brain was hardwired. its also (largely) inescapable. the organization of the brain is mostly inherited, not self assembled. the self assembly is just a thin layer of icing on a very large cake. most people like to think otherwise because it gives them a sense of self importance.
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